The court ruled that Leyla Zana had violated the penal code and the anti-terror law in nine different speeches.

Ms Zana, 47, has already spent 10 years in prison for links to the PKK, though that conviction was later overturned...

Her lawyer called the sentence an "unfortunate" decision in a country working to join the European Union, and said her client´s words were well within the bounds of free speech..

..

Ms Zana won the European Parliament´s Sakharov human rights award in 1995. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7765734.stm

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L4332930.htm

Even I am starting to wonder about your "agenda" now thehandsom?

First Youtube, your reference to "Midnight Express", now this.......

Do you scour the Turkish newspapers and pass by any positive news and pick out only the negative?

isn`t it ironic how he makes all this fuss about racism and fascism while praising terrorists and racist movies?

He is definitely suffering from the sorosism disease. Don`t feed this troll.

John F. Kennedy once said, "If we make peaceful revolution impossible, we make violent revolution inevitable.

Have you watched the movie and do you really know Turkish jails?

I have watched the movie and it`s the most racist movie I have ever seen which could only be praised by a racist bigot who pretends to be a liberal like some people here, and I don`t know how the jails are in Turkey, but they are defintely not worse than the american prisons in Iraq and Guantanamo.

 Hmmm you are right

Don´t YOU bother either...

 Why is it racist?  It is a true story, allbeit exagerated and yes it offended the Turks because of the implication of the state of the jails, but it was a brilliant film, well acted.  I never once thought of it as racist. 

 Watch it again - it is extremely racist against Turkish people

"you Turks are a nation of pigs"

yea I wonder what`s so racist about this!

I would agree with you..

The emphesis of the movie was not racism anyway..

 But AE, the negative is all that is left after Ros gets through going through the news first. 

 It´s a film and and old film at that!!! OK one phrase that could be considered racist.  I am sure there are plenty of films that can be considered racist, discrimantory, insulting, fascist, etc etc, and plenty of racist and insulting things have been said in films about British or German, or French or Italian or Japan, or Australia bla bla ............. but people move on!   

Well said..

But people who grew up with the ideas such as ´Turks only friends can be Turks only´ or they believe ´the entire world is out there to get Turks´ find the movie quite offensive.

Dont try to make a logic out of it

one emphasis???

That is just one example from the movie. This film is full of these kinds of racist scenes. If you haven`t watched the movie or if you don`t understand what you watch, please don`t comment on it, cause you`re being funny.

how come its not racist if they make a movie in which all the Turks are portrayed as evil and all the non-Turks good?

Have you really watched the movie? ha ha ha..

 So you don´t think that any other movies have been made that portray any other nation or peoples in a bad light? 

I said I have. do you have an issue about understanding what you read?

 Ouh we are SOOO liberated because we don´t care about insulting things about us? 

Well let´s face it (I can´t speak for Japan!!!), we do rather dominate the film industry don´t we?  There is not much chance of Turkey re-addressing the truth in any kind of world-wide way. 

Like it or not, the US and EU are a dominent force (for now) in many ways and how can Turkey fight it?  They are damned if they criticise the film, and damned if they stay silent and let people assume it is true.

I think we tend to forget this.

oh cool, just because there are other movies as well  which are racist, we should not consider the midnight express racist.

I love your reasoning.

As I mentioned earlier, when you look at the events from the perspective that ´ah the entire west is out there to get the Turks´ you come these type of conlcusion and you even BELIEVE them as if they are the only truth on earth..

Think about all your war movies about vietnam, think about ´platoon´, ´full metal jacket´ etc..

They put the your soldiers into characters who turned into blood thirsty maniacs which some of your soldiers were..

Would you come up and say that ´ahh this is all propaganda, all lies´?

 It is one film.  How many people have actually thought hhhmmmmm I wont go to Turkey because of "that film" and all Turks are like that.  I don´t think so otherwise you would have no tourist industry.

I am not trying to be funny or offend you just pointing out reality.

 I wasn´t denying that it is racist.  I personally don´t like the film.  I just don´t understand why you are so upset about it.  It´s not even close to the actual story that was written by the actual person that these events happened to.  The author of the book even stated that the movie does not reflect the actual events.....I am not reasoning...I am trying to understand why its such a big deal.  Lots of movies are made that insult the US and they are often not true but its not something that I would get upset over. 

Libralady, it is obvious that you haven`t watched the movie, so please stop commenting on it and pretending that you have watched it.

people`s keeping coming to Turkey does not prove that this movie is not racist. If a movie is racist, it is racist, and this has nothing to do with tourism.

 Elisabeth, the US is in the lucky position of not CARING what anyone thinks - they are too powerful to give a damn.

It is fine to say that the author now retracts many of his "truths".  However, how many people know of this, compared to the millions who viewed the film?

The film was a slap in the face to Turkey - you can´t deny it.

 You think this is just about tourism?!!

 I have a copy and I have watched it a couple of times and I believe the prison portrayed in the film is now a hotel. 

The actor who played the main part died of aids a few years ago.  John Hurt played an excellent part.  And I did not like the bit where the main characters´ cat was killed by the horrible prison warden, the one he killed at the end on the coat hooks.

OK I concede it is racist and it does not bear any relation to the number of people who have watched the film and still come to Turkey, because that are realistic enough to realise that it does not portray the everyday Turk accurately.

I dont think tami watched the movie really..

There were only two sceenes I remember you could call racists..

But the movie itself was not racist at all..

As far as the environments in jails are concerned, I dont think the movie was lying at all..(But most the jails are quite ugly all over the world anyway)

 I agree.  Surely though you see WHY Turkish people are offended by this film?

I have already told above why Turks thinks offended about the movie..

´Turks only friends can be Turks only´ or they believe ´the entire world is out there to get Turks´

That is the way we were all brought up..

really?

I remember those details from the movie;

they arrest william hayes, and in the police station they find another package of drugs in his boots

the police officer who inspects hayes` bag in the airport finds a frisbee and asks him what it is.

and the bad machines don`t know that they are bad machines. That is said by that child molester who has graduated from oxford.

is this enough evidence for you?

 I never said it wasn´t a slap in the face to Turks.  I just think its time to "let it go" about this movie. 

you should tell this to the person who first mentioned about the movie.

 OK - There is some fresh Pinot Noir in the Lounge?

Join me?

 I am already there!! 

 Please stop, nobody had watched the movie really, only me

 OK....OK....handsom....behave yourself and come to the translation lounge! 

 Hehehe you can come to the Lounge too Armegon - today we have a nargile

ha ha

That place is too girlish for me Lisa..

And also I find it against the forum rules too

 And this is mannish?

(ouh against the forum rules?  Well no mods or admins are objecting and it has even been made a sticky)

I am still insisting that it was NOT a slap in the face..

You can not find any LOGICAL reason in that movie why  it should be.

It was not my intention to open a discussion about the movie anyway..

 Offffffff of course it was!!!! You know very well that mentioning that film is like a red rag to a bull!!!

Another movie that I need to watch......

well..

Do you think because of the worry of upsetting some people should stop people telling what they think?

When it comes to that, same people will be upset when i mention about our history with armenians; same people will be upset when i mention about the movie ´mustafa´; same people will be upset when you remind them what is going on with our kurdish people or with the army etc.. So let it be..They should get used to it..This is called freedom of speech..

So I can not see much merit what you are saying up there..

forget the movie, read now this article about Leyla:

In all corners of the world, there are people of courage who live their lives determined to do the right thing for themselves and for those around them. These are people who are admired for their actions. They are never accredited timely but the righteous hope that they will be eventually recognized for their good will. In the predominantly Kurdish region of Turkey (see Northern Kurdistan), Leyla Zana has been living a life of constant struggle, determined to attain the rights of her people and in search of democracy in a place where such an idea seems unreachable. One may find it ironic that she has been accused of separatism and hate when she only speaks of peace and democracy. However, it is not irony but the lack of democracy where she lives that effectuates hate in circumstances where individuals like her are forced to strive for peace and are punished for it.

In Turkey, Kurds are subjected to terror and barbaric torture and a policy of forceful assimilation. Everything from social and political inequalities exists for the Kurds and the region in which they live is economically undeveloped. Although much of the world has claimed that the country represents a democracy in the Middle East, one can easily argue that this is far from the truth. Kurds who have spoken up about the injustices have been punished, labeled as threatening the Turkish state, and imprisoned. Leyla Zana’s story is symbolic to all those who have tried to take the peaceful road and have been penalized for doing so.

Leyla Zana was born in a Kurdish village near the city of Diyarbakir (Amed) in 1961. She married the former mayor of Diyarbakir and political activist, Mehdi Zana, who would later spend over a decade in prison for his non-violent political activities in favor of equal rights for the Kurdish people in Turkey. He was later recognized by Amnesty International as a prisoner of conscience. In 1991, while Mehdi Zana was serving his long sentence in prison, Leyla became the first Kurdish woman in Turkey to be elected to the Turkish parliament.

Leyla Zana gives speech in traditional Kurdish clothing

During her inauguration as Member of Parliament in the Turkish National Assembly, Leyla took her oath of allegiance in Turkish as required by the law and ended her oath with the following phrase in the Kurdish language:

“I have completed this formality under duress. I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people.”

These words are precisely and unmistakably those of peace, friendship and equality. However, her audience responded to her gesture by calling her a separatist and a terrorist, and said that she should be arrested. Turkish law forbids any public use of the Kurdish language in Turkey and by politicians; a law designed as part of a larger campaign of ethnocide against people of Kurdish descent in Turkey. Her audience’s wishes were fulfilled when she was arrested and charged with treason. Still, Leyla defended herself,

“Since we have come to Parliament, we have defended equality, democracy and brotherhood. We have asked to end the bloodshed. If these actions are crimes, we accept that.”

Leyla Zana’s advocating of peace was ignored and she would spend the next ten years of her life behind bars. She was accused of separatist motives and was tortured by Turkish guards and police; circumstances hard to imagine for most as she has been brutally beaten and tortured on much more than one occasion in her life.

Leyla Zana was later recognized as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International and was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1998 while still in prison. In 1995, Leyla was awarded with the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. She was freed on June 6th of 2004 when she could finally accept the prize and address European Parliament with words of peace. She said that a peaceful solution to the Kurdish question in Turkey must be found.

Leyla Zana still keeps a smile while handcuffed and in custody

In recent years, despite EU pressure on Turkey for democratic reform, the Kurdish people are still oppressed and people are still arrested unjustly. And today, Leyla once again faces the risk of imprisonment for charges violating her right to freedom of speech.

Since her release, Leyla Zana has faced multiple retrials regarding her case. And in March of this year, Leyla was reportedly sentenced by the High Criminal Court in Ankara to seven and a half more years in prison along with three other members of the former Democratic Party (DEP); a party outlawed like other Kurdish parties after being accused by the Turkish government of having separative motives despite their lack of proof. Apparently, the court still views the four former members of having intent to undermine the Turkish government despite their words of peace contradictory to such claims.

http://zaneti.blogspot.com/2007/05/obstacles-for-peace-democracy-and-leyla.html

Whats that lounge fuss here? Do i need permission from admin? I dont like nargile btw

Sounds like an amazing woman....Such a shame to see another yet unfortunate victim serve jail time...pretty soon this lack of equality and free speech is going to backfire on the Turkish Government and it appears it has already started.

ok Roswitha, just to sum up what you`re trying to say; your terrorist is good terrorist.

now you can continue with your mental masturbation.

 Turks dont forget Leyla, dont worry Ros, many Turks have already noted her...

MY GOD!!! i´ve never seen anyone as rude as you are... she just posted an article with the link included. just because she posted it doesn´t necessarily mean it reflects her own opinion....

i thought there was supposed to be no personal insults here!!!.... i find yours very insulting....

...

what article and what resource are you talking about?

that is a just a blog of a terrorism propagandist. anyone who has access to the net can make up that bs, but only shallow people like Ros could use it as a resource.

Some people make their posts of articles to see what other people think, and have to say about it... not necessarily their own opinion...

it´s a blog... nevertheless... just because she posted it doesn´t necessarily reflect her own opinion.... ( how can we get that across your thick head? ) and it doesn´t excuse you from making personal insults.... if you have read enough of Roswitha´s posts, you would understand what she is doing....

apparently you don´t....

it`s getting worse as you keep talking. you better stop.

I know what she is trying to do; pkk propaganda. I could the same for al qaida, but I`m in America and I don`t want to get jailed in a torture cell in gitmo!

Tamikidakika, you are insulting a foreign lady whose only fault is having a different perspective into our problems. By browsing the net, she has come to such a conclusion. If everyone responded as thoughtlessly as you did, her conclusion would become iron-clad. It is only through conveying your opinions that you can persuade people.

You should really apoligize to her; cool down and try to express your opinion in a civilized manner.

Otherwise, you are a part of the negative publicity (assuming that you are after a positive version of it.)

apparently, you have no idea what Roswitha is doing for this site, and how she operates on posting articles, blogs, comments etc.... 

i am not to be told when to stop.... specially from someone like you...

Justine:  If you get youtube please listen to Aynur "Ahmedo"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgcJfYlA6d0

she has never supported any PKK propaganda!!! how narrow minded can you get??? a post about PKK makes her pro-PKK? come on!!!

should I apologise her? it`s apparent that none of your relatives got murdered by these terrorists.

no but praising leyla zana who explicitly says she is a supporter of pkk makes her pro pkk

Wish you were still a mod vineyard...

You are wrong one of my relatives was murdered by these terrorists. I know that Roswitha is not responsible for that. I also know that you cannot gain support by cursing or threatening people.

Things are not that easy man. It takes talking, talking and ironing out the rough spots on both yourself and others.

when did I curse or threaten people?

Well whatever the things you said to Roswitha amount to...

I was not particularly talking about your words. (You is literal there -a common misunderstanding)

You worry me tamik.....

and did she say anything praise worthy about her? it was a blog that she posted on this site... she didn´t write it... it´s not her opinion.... apparently you don´t get it.... before making an insult, you should make sure by asking the person about her views.....

+10000000

such a cheap argument

if she hadn`t really mean that, she could have told that. please don`t talk on behalf of her.

right guantanamo frightens me too!

i´m sorry about what happened to your relatives... but you should also ask yourself how many of Roswitha´s  relatives were shot and murdered by the Czechs and Bolsheviks.

 Since no country will take these prisoners.....then why don´t you volunteer and take them back with you to Turkey while your at it.

It is very quite obvious that people belonging to different cultures have certain routines in their minds preventing them from understanding one another.

In a speech Yasar Kemal has recently given, he said, our education system (meaning all the world) is a shame. It is impossible to create good, positive and constructive people through this system. We are raising power hungry generations who calculate how they can kill tens of millions of people in one go. This happens when these people become presidents or say the pilots of the Anola Gay, they are bereaved of the power to say what we are doing is wrong and I don´t want to take part in this crime. It is because of this corrupt education system that we raise so many heartless persons.

Above is not a word to word translation. Instead it is what is left in my mind after reading it.

This is offtopic.

I don`t remember anyone praising the czech or russian here.

just because she didn´t say anything it gives you the right to make assumptions about her either....

and yes.... this has turned out to be cheap argument that started out from a VERY CHEAP INSULT to someone you don´t personally know....

i will talk on her behalf... what gives you the right to tell me what i should or should not do?

sure I will, but only  after you take the pkk terrorists in Turkey to your country.

you can`t talk on behalf of Ros, if you`re not Ros. that`s that simple, and I have every right to say that whether you like it or not.

justinetime and justtwominutes

 Were already taking care of them in northern Iraq...

we already know who is the boss of these pkk terrorists, but thanks for your honest confession.

OK before this turns into an East - West clash again. I suggest changing the subject. I am sure messages containing personal attacks will be deleted by our mod friends. (unless there is a last minute addition to the general guidelines).

 No problem...

Yes, turn to another page,  there are so many beautiful subjects when it comes to Turkiye.

Schluss jetzt, FIN..................finito

end of childish talk and accusations

.... cooled down...

 Good idea Ros....however I don´t think there was actually a debate about the topic itself..

She again managed to sentence once more as she spreads hate since she was freed and famous again maybe this time she will be awarded by other organization. Do not worry she will be again saved by very very democratic countries. Imo, she is a bloody terrorist as she publicly says their leader is terrorist Öcalan hence by direct ratio she is also a bloody terrorist . whatelse can be said, PKK murdered thousands of civilians and soldiers treacherously and some humans still say she uses freedom of speech, thats too much for me to say this for the one who supports and praises baby killers, disgusting...

Anyway the funny thing is they are searching for someone to accompany Öcalan as he was bored in jail, at least they found it, then they can play table tennis together , until she saved...

Good article Ros..

Thanks for sharing.

We, some Turks, have been saying the same things for many many years too..

+10000

Yet, I mostly agree what it says in that article..

And this also shows what type of primitiveness we are trying to deal in Turkey here.

This woman has never ever took arms. 

She has never ever killed anybody.

Yet, she has spent all those years in jail about ´JUST SPEAKING´.

Any words such as ´peace,  democracy, human rights, freedom of speach´ are not acceptable for this ´cave man´ mentality which is still flourishing in some developing men of my developing country. 

im not criticizing the movie at all cus i only watched part of it. however if people are going to make a movie about another country wouldnt they have to get permission first? From what i have seen why did the turks let them shoot the filmn turkey if they knew it was going to describe turkey in a bad image? And if the turkish people didnt like it after it was shot why did they let it go cinema? why didnt they protest to keep it from showing in the theatres?

Permission to film in Istanbul was refused and filming took place in Malta and Libya.  Apparently ´background shots of Istanbul were shot by a small crew pretending to shoot footage for a cigarette commercial´.  I don´t know for certain but I very much doubt tbe film was released in Turkey.

Wooow, mentality , according to this sick mentality, there is no terrorist leader in world, only the pawns, even Bin Ladin is not a terrorist either since he did not bomb any civilians or terrorism financiers also. Zanas and Aynas(the hairy one ) announcing 15 August 1984 as a victory day that they killed Turkish soldiers treacherously. The real cave men with their mentalities living in Kandil in real caves, killing and robbing people, drinking drugs and walking around like zombie robots, even raping the female terrorists...

I am talking about a woman here

Who never took arms

Who never killed anybody

Yet, she has spent all those years in jail about ´JUST SPEAKING´.

Putting people in jail for just speaking  means ´you are afraid of people speaking´ and THAT IS  PRIMITIVENESS at the level of cave man..

Yep, i am also talking about a terrorist who supports other terrorists to kill civilians

I dont think you do understand..

I keep telling..

She has never took arms and she has never killed anybody!!

How can you call her terrorist??

This is like putting Gerry Adams of N Ireland in jail..

Can you not see the parallels here?

In N Ireland, they did not put Gerry Adams into jail and he made IRA put the arms away..

Now, nobody gets killed there..

But in Turkey, you put anybody who talks about kurdish problem into jail and people still get killed..

Dohhh!!!

I keep saying that she is terrorist like many other terrorists. Other terrorist leaders do no take arms and maybe never killed anybody but direct a terrorist organisation. Do this chahged the fact that they are terrorists?

 if a father is a terrorist than the son is a terrorist too  And anyone who makes a statement that may provoke terrorism is a terrorist too huh.. errrr so should everyone not speak up against their government ever

haha.

Are you sure about she ´directed a terrorist organization´?

She was never ever directed or managed any terrorist organisation and you very well know that..

She does not live in Northern Iraq. She lives in Turkey. She is watched all the time.

Are you not aware that because you putting zana type people

WHO NEVER KILLED ANYBODY

WHO NEVER DIRECTED A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION

WHO NEVER TOOK ARMS INTO HER HANDS

people are still getting killed?

Are you saying that putting zana type people into jail helps to solve ´our Kurdish problem´?

Are you sure that jailing Zana helps the peace we are trying to achive in Turkey?

 not the best example........

A convicted IRA bomber has said that the Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams was "my commanding officer" at the time of the bombing. (says) Dolours Price, who with her sister Marion was convicted of involvement in a four car-bomb attack on London on March 8, 1973, made the claim at a republican event in February, according to witnesses.- Irish Echo Newspaper Corp March 2001

Completely nonsense, everybody knows she is a preacher to public, and advices Kurds to be terrorists while she was praising the terrorist leader. This means she is a terrorist, and directs people, responsible for all killed innocents. You again want to talk how to solve Kurdish issue as we talked many times here, you lost at the beginning when you try to justify terrorism by defending these Kurdish racists, and im right with my thoughts about you...

Now you are losing this argument.

You are acknowleding that she has been TALKING only..

And you still dont get the direct relations between putting people into jail for JUST talking and the basic human rights.

I was not trying to justify the terrorism at all..

All I was trying to say was, when you put people into jail for just speaking is resulting in MORE deaths..(and you dont need to be very clever to see that)

And, somehow your desire of revenge from the people who dont think same as you do, is resulting more deaths of my country´s citizens.

You are guilty of believing the army who lied to all of us and the people who do not want to finish this war, the people who make money and living out of this war.

 Well, you could say that Hitler was TALKING only

Hitler gave orders to kill people. That woman never gave orders to kill people.. ..

When she was put in jail years ago, all she said was ´I have completed this formality under duress. I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people.´ in Kurdish in the parliment and the result was 10 years in jail..

 , she declares Öcalan as her leader and Kurds leader, means she is under the order of a terrorist leader, so she also a terrorist, thats what normal person perceives from that declaration, actually she is political representetive of terrorists and brain-washeds. btw im losing nothing, im behind my words, if her preachings is just speaking, nothing can be said to that sick mentality that directs people to kill civilians or Turkish soldiers even Kurds who do not bow down. Actually that sick racist mentality of ones like Zana & Ayna, results more people killed...

Well, you like it or not but there are at least 5 million Turks/Kurds think that Ocalan is their leader and they symphatise with him (actually most of them are quite keen on him. if he says die to them, they will die).

When you add others who dont like Ocalan but symphatise with the kurds because of all those anti democratic asimilation and treatment, you have already lost it..

Are you going to call them terrorist too? are you going to put them in jail too?

(think of islamic world, think of pakistani people for example, at least 80% of them supports osama, are they all terrorists? they should all be put in jail?)

Not seeing this reality, putting people like Zana in jail (who never took arms, never killed anybody and still insists that ´Turks and Kurds should find a way to live together peacefully´  and STILL believing in people who lied to you repeatedly (starting from K Evren´s speaches -such as ´there is no such a thing as kurds they are all mountain turks to we have only terrorism problem which is supported by foreign powers blah blah-) caused the death of 40.000 thousand people (mainly Kurds). Do you want more? How much more?

I will repeat again, if British goverment put people like Gerry Adams into jail there would still be killing in N Ireland. 

Why do we keep insisting that Turkish lives are not as important as British lives? 

why are we still not trying to stop this blood bath? 

The answer is ´mentality´ which keeps feeding itself with the blood.

Absolutely Lesluv!  Gerry Adams was just clever not to get caught, he orchestrated many many deaths.  He made sure his hands were not bloodied, others did the work for him and took the punishment. 

 In that respect there is always someone to take their place.  Just because he did not get put into jail does not mean he is not guilty.  The IRA killed many innocent people and he was the leader of Sinn Fien, therefore in my book he was as guilty as the men who pulled the trigger.  He could have stopped the killings with the click of his fingers.

The real hero of the cease fire was the late and incredible Mo Molem not Gerry Adams and co.

 and as he was their commanding officer it was quite easy for him to do this

 +1

 And like I said, the incredible Mo Mowlem was the main instigator for the ceasefire and which was the catalyst for giving up arms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/northern_ireland/understanding/profiles/mo_mowlam.stm

btw..

Giving british gov and Gerry Adams as an example is not a sport for Gerry Adams..

It was just to give an example that how British goverment put their citizens lives ahead of everything and FINISHED the killings..

Of course G Adams and Martin McGuinness were running the IRA.. 

I guess the question remains with me...is she an advocate for terrorism or not?  Just based on this article her words were not threatening...in fact it sounded more of a person who wants the two to unite...am I wrong?

 According to you then, Turkey has 5 million terrorists to deal with since they can die for terrorism by killing people includin Zana.  Are you one of them?

I dont think we have problem with peaceful people, actually these people has problems with these terrorists.  But again you are making agitations, as only Kurds the poorest ones and only the Kurds mistreated in Turkey; just have a look at all people in Turkey instead of focusing on only Kurds and instead of defending their Kurdish racists and terrorists but since i dont see these, i put you in that racist group. Your double-standards force me to think like this unfortunately.

How you come this conclusion? did you make a poll? Imo who supports that vahhabi puppet freak called ossama is also a terrorist, nothing changes because they can kill civilians with an order like an installed robot, just like the cave men in Kandil. But since im working with some Pakistanis, they curse ossama since hes using the name Islam, maybe i only came up with the intellectuel ones.

What reality are you talking about? She is threatenin Turkey and Turkish army by terrorism, is this how she trying to create peace? By dividing the nation with her retarded mentality. Nobody lied to me, im not a fan of Evren either, actually i dont like him if you did care to my posts here but i think you only see your own nose rather than this; claiming that im a fan of Evren. It seems you are brainwashed by propogand of terrorists and parroting same thing here as putting all blame to Turks and Turkish army, you are blind to see the reality that Kurds are being used. Surely i dont want more people killed but seems Zana and their bosses want more, one can observe these tense created by these racists nowadays...

 Hmm, i know at last you will shout "freedom for terrorist in Ýmralý", we know the situation when he was outside...Are these terrorists orphans when he is now in jail? I dont think so, he also does what he want from jail, anyone cant find a jail like this, thanks to your bla blas

 What is this? I have never claimed someting like that, are you fine?

You are not making sense now..I am not even Kurdish and I find Ocalan quite primitive. 

I never defended any of the racism in my entire life to be honest. But I always thought that kurdish racism was the result of Turkish racism. You may keep saying that we dont have problems with peaceful people but jailing Kurdish politicians proving that you are not right. 

Possibly, it is the case..But I lived in Pakistan for more than 2 years so I think I may claim that I have more experience on the issue. (even General Musarraf accepted the fact that he would not catch Osama because, he was afraid of the aftermath)

I believe that Turkish nationalism is the one playing (and have played) a dividing role here by not accepting the reality that there are other minorities living in our country and trying to make them Turkish..

Well as you see, it has not been working (please check the sark islahat plani thread about the treatment of Kurds since the beginning of the republic).

There are many thing to be said about the lies you were told and you believed ( from statements from the army about ´we dont have kurdish problem, it is all foreign powers´ to JITEM, Ergenekon) But I wont have a go on them.

But I believe from your statements, you   opposed to the generals when they banned the kurdish language or changed the kurdish viallage names and when they told ´there are no kurds. they are mountain turks´.. And I am sure you did not believe them when they burned the villages in the east and said that ´we did not do it´. or when Jitem killed those thousands of kurds and the army said that ´they have no idea what happened to them´.

Well it is good to know

Calm down..

See.. you still dont get the parallels here..How cleverly the Brits stopped the killings there. Because they value the lives of their citizens..They put their citizens lives ahead of everything (they even talked to known terrorists in order to stop the bloodshed)..

 Jailing of Kurdish politicians who never killed or took arms will cause more unrest..and more deaths..

That is what you are FAILING TO SEE. 

I know you do your hate propaganda So this is not responds to you I just want to inform people who dont know much about Turkey.

according to 2007 votes, less than 1.5 million people voted for DTP (which is a political party with full of "Zana" kind people. they wont declare pkk is a terrorist organization. We can say that "at least they are sympathise with it". )   I dont believe all of these people voted for them because of that DTP is related to pkk. and "attributing them with ready to die for pkk" would be just a huge (and ignorant) exaggeration for most of them. BUT lets accept this imputation and assume that they are all ready to die for pkk (or for öcalan "the baby killer"). if we assume +1 million for under 18 years old who cant vote (even with babies included)  that equals to 2.5 million people. (for the record Kurdish population more than 15 million) They totally 2.5 million Turkey has 70 million (approx.)

I have few words for pkk supporters: if you think your whining in everywhere will force Turkey to step back, you can continue dreaming. if you think Turkey´s endurance  eventually will break down and have to agreement with pkk you can continue dreaming.  if you think death tolls of turk and kurd soldiers will eventually force Turkey to an agreement you can continue dreaming. You should know that there are lots of people ready to die for Turkey, they say "VATAN SAÐOLSUN".

It was not a hate propaganda actually, it was my attempt the INSERT the truth into ignorance and blindness I see around here.

My numbers are taken from a column in Turksish daily news paper AND the columnist numbers are based on a petition abou A Ocalan (I will give the link for you in the end to the article)

"Abdullah Öcalan’ý beðenirsiniz, Abdullah Öcalan’ý beðenmezsiniz.

Bu memlekette Öcalan’ýn MEFTUNU OLAN/HASTASI OLAN/Öcalan’ý LÝDERÝ BÝLEN/ÖL DESE ÖLECEK OLAN en az, hakikaten abartmadan söylemeye gayret ediyorum 
EN AZ: BEÞ MÝLYON insanýmýz var."

You like A Ocalan or not. In this country we have at least 5 million OUR people who are ready to die for Ocalan without an exaggeration´

"Bu memlekette 25 yýlýn sonunda, 30 yýlýn sonunda Kürt Hareketi için/içinde illa billa Abdullah Öcalan’ýn NE ANLAM TAÞIDIÐINI inkâr etmekte ýsrarcý olmak ARTIK körlük, körleþme, kör parmaðým gözüne filan deðil: ateþin yanmasýna duyulan ýsrarcýlýkla, bir nevi hainlik, açýkça zalimliktir."

In this country, after 25 or 30 years, still ignoring the fact ´what A Ocalan means to Kurds´ and insisting of ignoring it DOES NOT ONLY mean being BLIND, but it is a kind of TREASON and clearly BEING CRUEL.

"Sen yapma doðru dürüst okumaný. Alma gereken tedbirleri. Verme on yýllardýr esirgediðin haklarý. Ýnat et! Israr et! Baþarýsýzlýðýný azýcýk yüzüne vuranlarý tehdit et!
Al elâlemin çocuklarýný, Allah’ýn kuzucuklarýný: at ateþe! Fýrlat ölüme!
Abdullah Öcalan’ýn televizyon seyredebilmesi, 3 çocuðun hayatýný kurtaracaksa; ben plazma televizyon kurdururum hücresine arkadaþ."

You dont read the situation properly, do not take the necessary measures, do not give the rights to those people for tens of years. you insist! and when someone slap you in the face  about how unsuccessful you are  then, you threaten people..

You take others boys into the army, throw them into fire! throw them into their deaths!

If A Ocalan watching tv will save 3 boys lives; I personally would put a plasma tv into his cell´

The rest of the article is here for you gencturk (IN TURKISH):

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Default.aspx?aType=YazarYazisi&ArticleID..08&PAGE=2

This thread is in danger of claiming the longest and most labourious posts in the history of TC.

Proceed with care...

 This is the thread you should have posted the "Warning" sign on! 

I like this!  I think we should have more signs like this to warn of what to expect in the different threads.  I will propose it at the Admin/Mod AGM (Christmas Party) next week

Hmmm "quite primitive", im surprised , He is a terrorist leader, the one who raped terrorist girls, who killed families, the handsom. Only a brainwashed can say this, actually you never make sense, also there have been terrorists from other nations in PKK rather than Kurds btw..

You are defending these terrorists from the beginning. And Turkish facists which were fed up during cold war did not hit only Kurds but also other ethnicities and Alevis who did not even think to rebel the Turkey, which proves your double standards maybe tens of times here . Btw it is not jailing Kurdish politicians, it is jailing terrorists who claimed to be politician, there still some politician in parliament whose husband is on mountains.

I dont believe, actually i am sure that problem is puppet facist Kurdish leaders who are directing the ignorant people by threatening with their feodal system, caused many rebellions during the Republic history. As we talked before one of the result of this is Islahat planý. I think the lies you were told are the same as which was used to brainwash Kurdish people to convert them into terrorist who hate everything about Turkey. Denying the effect of foreign intelligent services that are using sometimes ülkücü group or counter guerilla organizations, sometimes other ethnicities in Turkey, is simply absurd, because it is clear as day . After cold war strategies and targets are of course changed due to the project of BOP. I am sure you did not believe that terrorist wearing Turkish army uniform, killing people.

Since i learned your mentality from the beginning when you called terrorists as "young boys", i would say the same thing to you, imo you are trying to justify terrorism here. And any concession in the way dealing terrorists of Turkish authorities gathers more dahgerous situations even more inner rebellions because this time Turkish people will begin to use weapons instead of army. In fact i think Turkey is getting closer to this situation, thanks to our government AKP...

I do like to read Perihan Maðden because of her style of writing and her smart  sarcasms.  But I dont believe someone if just say something without evidence. I do think Perihan maðden naively said this number  But this is just an huge and blind exagaration as I explained in my previous post.

"Abdullah Öcalan’ýn televizyon seyredebilmesi, 3 çocuðun hayatýný kurtaracaksa; ben plazma televizyon kurdururum hücresine arkadaþ."
I agree with her aims generally but I think issues are not easy to resolve as she naively describe.

I have always found him very primitive indeed I dont know what you are trying say up there? agreeing? disagreeing? Do you find him sophisticated? what?

You are reapeating himself and mixing up the concepts there..it is always the case that anybody talks about kurdish rights and our wrong doings, have always been accused the same way. So it is not original at all.

I think you should go and read a little bit more about these issues..Even the most army loving liberals are accepting now that  the REAL cause of this conflict has been ´denying the right of kurds in the first place and the assimilation since the beginning of republic´.

Sark islahat plani, as a document, is a slap on the face for people who think we have done nothing wrong.

I am not trying to justify terrorism here and I never did. You very well know that. 

This is one of the the cheapest arguments when people have run out of arguments..

Here are some links for you to read:

(Turkish) http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType2.2008&CategoryID=77 (List of missing people made to vanish by the ´authorities´ you are mentioning and loving and believing whatever they say)

Mehmet Ali Birand (English) http://hurarsiv.hurriyet.com.tr/goster/haber.aspx?id=10510827&yazarid=298 

It was an allusion unfortunately you fail to understand . the adjective "primitive" with "quite" to describe him, is just making him an angel i think , but i expect more soften term from you actually, thats why i said im surprised.

What do you think you are doing? Of course ill say the same thing, thats what i learned and thought to be the truth, only i use different expressions and informations to state my thoughts. If i say something to oppose my thinking, i betray myself and the truth . So you mean those anybodies think like me, im happy for them then. Do you think your thoughts original? I think you love to be original, what a pity im ordinary

Please dont advice me to read something, i already read many of them in years. In Turkey not only Kurds living thehandsom, i know thats sorrowful for you but real. But mostly Kurds rebel all the time, if they speak Kurdish, Arabic, Turkish nothing changes since they choose to be a toy of facist Agas or others, fixed with experience and history. 

I know very well what you are trying to do here. Actually im a plain person, i prefer to say what i think about people without hiding. And ill try to reply your made-up accusations if i have time. In fact you running out of argument and this post is a good example for this

I am calling the guy primitive and you are accusing me that I am trying to show him as an angel? hahaha

You really made me laugh man..

So they are a faulty people eh? somehow, they always choose to be a toy of others? You are accusing the Kurds as people here. That seems abit of a racism to me.. Dont you think? 

what am I trying to do here then? What made up accusations are you talking? I have already given  many documents here..

The one of the last links was people who were KILLED (MADE DISSPEAR) by our security forces for example. Do you talk about it? no. Do you have a heart to say that ´yes our security forces killed those people unlawfully?´ ..no.

I showed you a slap on the face  documentation ´sark islahat plani´ for example. do you say anything about it? no.

I gave many many examples of how ´our own mistakes created´ this entire kurdish problem. do you come up with anything apart from ´ah they are all terrorists, they are toys of the foreign powers´? no..

If you come up with credible arguments, I promise to tell you more stories and facts from the history about the entire problem. But since you are not producing anything I dont think it is worth really..

So the argument with you is over for me in this thread..

I still recommend you to go and read more though

Here to teach or learn Turkish ...or to make comments on political issues half of which are nothing more than lies organised to steal people´s time,to make them think of useless things???

I visit here sometimes,boast with the teachers trying to teach Turkish for free and the learners who are willing to learn it.

Yes,forums generally include sharing ideas but not the ones inviting people to think of  racism!

So,please dear admins...could it be possible to close this subject of the forum ?

thanks in advance..wishing you all the best in your teaching and learning duration.

regards, 

It seems that you are implying that handsom’s contributions are less than yours (which I wonder about because you only have 6 posts here) just because you do not agree with his point of view. Handsom has been a great contributor to translations….including many, many poems, songs and requests by insipid girls who don’t bother learning the language of the men they get involved with.

You also imply that members are not smart enough to form their own opinions……that infuriates me! We are not sheep. We don’t read something posted and think….OMG this MUST be true!!! Most of us are intelligent and know how to research things that peak our interest and then form our own conclusions.

If you find the thread distasteful enough that you feel it necessary to call for someone else to put a stop to it….just don’t respond!

QUOTE :If you find the thread distasteful enough that you feel it necessary to call for someone else to put a stop to it….just don’t respond!

Hmmm... oh well...ha ha haaaaaaaaa!!!

Lack of understanding, i said "i think describing him like this" and then said "expect more soften term from you" , do you want me to spell maybe more easy to understand ?

As i said, im a plain person, if it is their choice; instead of rebelling the facist Agas or other, some choose to rebel the state. Saying this racism, then so it be, i cant twist well unfortunately.

Everyone can find documents from biased or PKK sympathizer web page, these dont mean they are saying the truth. Just like Ros´s one, when one "who just nothing knows about Turkish politics" says "wow how wonderful Zana, she won also human rights award" without knowing reality and her racist comments, thats just you are trying to do here to justify terrorism.

Yes, it seems you dont want to remember my posts about the events such as 6-7 Eylül or the events caused 1980 coup, but i always explained what caused them instead of defaming the whole nation. You need to freshen your memory.

Which slap? I had shown you many times what caused Islahat planý and never defended it.

Haha, im not throwing all blame to Turkish authorities, thats our difference. Btw never called all Kurds terrorists. Do you come up with anything that it is result of Turkish racism?

Ok, i will do my best to satisfy you by producing something then, please dont hesitate to come-up with your so-called facts from history .

Bay Bay, see you next time

thehandsom, i recommend you to read me more

Although this is Turkish Language site it is a lot more than just a site for teaching/learning Turkish.  The forums are a big part of the site.  Some people come to learn Turkish, others come to take part in the forums where there are many discussions about politics, religion and the world in general.  Thank you for your opinion but as a new member who has not even taken part in the ongoing topic I don´t think you should just ´jump in´ with these comments.  I also don´t think that people are being ´invited´ to think about racism - its all around us unfortunately and it´s hard to avoid thinking about it.

Anyway, welcome to the site and I am sure your help as a Turkish teacher will be much appreciated  

 Great post GG!!

This thread is really going nowhere but round and round in circles and personally I think it´s becoming incrasingly more difficult for non-Turks to follow.  Thehandsom says ´the argument is over for me in this thread´ but if it´s going to continue don´t you think it would be better if you guys took this to pm? 

 You are all wasting your time.  If you want to talk to Amicamia you have to first use Paypal

 Can you pass it please? (AND donate!!!)